Oracle E-Business Suite Technology

Two words, Steven: 'chicken', 'egg'.

And btw, who's vision or strategy is this? While the whole world is watching Vista with suspicion, Oracle is saying: 'well, we're not going to certify the Linux Desktop for EBS, because nobody seems to want it'? Did I miss something?

Another btw: You guys did certify Firefox, and made the following remark:
'By the way, we rarely hear about Firefox issues from our users, which has led many to speculate it's not a popular browser among our customers. (I've tried to explain how that logic is faulty, but not always with success.)'

Maybe you and Keith need to catch up on 'logic'.

Oh, wait, I did miss something (update #3 on the Vista certification):
'This has visibility at the highest executive levels in both of our respective organizations, so this certification effort has been prioritized accordingly. Both Oracle and Microsoft are highly motivated to complete this certification as soon as possible.'

Right... prioritized, or is it: negiotiated?

Hi, Anonymous,I've released your comment for public viewing but would like to ask you to refrain from further ad hominem comments.   While I understand that some people feel strongly about the need for Linux advocacy, such advocacy might generate more good will and receptiveness if performed with grace and good humor.Also, remember that it's generally considered bad form to shoot the messenger.To some of your points:I appreciate the circularity of the reasoning around platform certification decisions.  Many of the same chicken-and-egg arguments have been made for Vista, as well.  Many customers have pointed out that they're holding back on Vista upgrades since many vendors, Oracle included, are still in the process of their Vista certification.Microsoft holds the world's monopoly on desktop operating systems.  Therefore, certification of the E-Business Suite on new Microsoft operating systems is almost-always a given.  Certification on other desktop operating systems is always subject to customer demand. If you would like to help spur Linux adoption, then specific information about your organization's plans for Linux would be helpful.  Such data is always useful in breaking through the chicken-and-egg paradox and moving the discussion along.Regards,Steven

Hi, Darrell,Thanks for your comments, and your insight as vendors into our shared customers' needs.  >Why not limit your efforts to the Oracle supported distribution of Linux?It's something that we've considered.  But it still boils down to the extent of customers who will benefit from this certification.  If we certify Oracle's Linux distribution, it won't do our customers much good if they're all using a different distro.   So, we need to determine (somehow) where we can serve the greatest number of Linux users.This is, indeed, one of the biggest challenges around executing a Linux certification plan for the E-Business Suite.Regards,Steven

I agree that the plethora of Linux distributions is a complicating factor. Why not limit your efforts to the Oracle supported distribution of Linux?

I don't have any insight on Linux desktops. We're a third-party software vendor in the E-Business Suite space and haven't run into Linux desktops either here or at our customers. I just think the Linux desktop is coming but probably it'll take another two years before there's much traction.

Darrell Murphy
RingMaster Software

What about integration OeBS (BI Publisher, Web ADI e.tc.) with Linux office systems (for sample OpenOffice)?

Hi, A_B,We don't have any current plans to certify E-Business Suite components with Linux productivity applications like OpenOffice.  Regards,Steven

Saadi, Riaz,Thanks for your comments.  It's always interesting to see the amount of fervor and enthusiasm that non-Windows platform users bring to their advocacy discussions.  Linux and Mac users are always vociferous in their defence of these platforms against perceived insults or slights.A personal aside:   I run Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux myself.  Much to my wife's chagrin, I once spent a recent Thanksgiving holiday installing and comparing 13 Linux distros.This is to underline that Oracle's position on the Linux certification is distinct from my own opinions.  New desktop certifications require significant investment in testing infrastructure, testing team staffing worldwide, and possible opportunity cost when staff are pulled off other projects.  Given the magnitude of the costs involved, such decisions are handled at executive levels far above mine.  Please note the chicken-and-egg comments above.  Something has to kick this off, and my personal view is that Oracle is unlikely to use the E-Business Suite as the catalyst for triggering widespread Linux desktop adoption.  Therefore, in addition to your enthusiastic endorsement of Linux, I would strongly recommend that you provide hard statistics about your own organizations' Linux desktop adoption plans.  If you provide such statistics, these will be used as part of our Oracle's ongoing evaluations of the market demand for this certification. Regards,Steven

Hi Steven,

Its quite strange as to why the importance of Linux desktop certification is unable to find a place at Oracle, which does certify Mac, a platform that has already been taken over by Linux!

There appears to be a soft corner for Windows else what could be a good reason to ignore Linux. Honestly this is what I've picked up from this blog.

Saadi.

Hi, Vikram,Thanks for your comments.  Based on my periodic surveys of the latest Linux distros and the Linux versions of productivity apps like OpenOffice, I'm inclined to think that Linux's full potential has yet to be realized.  Biologists have long-since established that viruses and other
catastrophes sweep through monocultures faster than rich and diverse ecological
ecosystems.  I think that the desktop platform industry can benefit from more diversity, both in terms of fostering new user interface innovations as well as increasing robustness.  So I'm rooting for Linux, as well as Mac OS X.  The next decade is going to be interesting...Regards,Steven

As far as business users are concerned, Linux Desktop is not there yet. It is difficult to imagine an organization which doesn't use Microsoft Office and Windows. Of course in each company you'll have people like me playing with a Linux desktop. But business users are not tech enthusiasts. They need to get the job done. Linux is very much behind Windows as far as desktop operating systems are concerned.

Also, I think it is possible to use Linux as a desktop client for E-Business Suite if you implement Sun Java plugin instead of Jinitiator. Also by using this hack (not supported by oracle): http://teachmeoracle.com/howto02.html you could use Linux as a desktop.

Hello Steven,

150 or so desktops here waiting to be converted to Linux because everything that our business needs can be done / already being done including office productivity, collaboration, business intelligence, project management, CAM etc. on Linux desktop, except for EBS. But then these small numbers won't give enough reasons for Oracle to move. Strategic vision will!

A note for Vikram. Keep up with the developments in corporate world and education alike. There has been en masse migrations to Linux desktop and Open/Staroffice, now estimated at more than thirty million around the globe. After trying and testing mature desktops such as Suse and Xandros it is hard to accept that there is anything that Linux can't do, much more securely robustly and intelligently. Check it out !

Riaz

Hello, Riaz,Glad to hear that this has worked out well for your organization.  Which Linux distribution and version are you using?Regards,Steven

Hi Steven,

The simile with biological systems is interesting. It is possible that Linux desktop would take off during next decade. However the current status of Desktop Linux is not impressive. This article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/07/desktop_linux_fluendo/ echoes my opinions and says that: "The Linux desktop reminds us of a dog humping a table leg. It's both fun and disturbing to watch, but ultimately there's very little payoff from the exercise." No offense on this, as it is again the opinion of the author. Let us hope that Linux is able to stand up to Windows in the Desktop space in the coming decade and make more real choices available.

- Vikram

Hi Riaz,

I too have a linux desktop in office and am trying to see how much of regular work can be done on it. OpenOffice works ok, it still doesn't support Microsoft VBA for macros (its in their todo list). The official chat client Sametime is now available in Linux version, so I have it on. The only other important thing I need is the Nortel VPN to work on Linux. I haven't been successful by using freeware tools like vpnc-nortel yet, though commercial clients like Apani VPN client for Linux is available for $100 or so. And of course, E-Business Suite will work when all the instances start using Sun Java plugin instead of Jinitiator. So I am not discounting the future of Linux. It is the present status with which I am not happy.

- Vikram

Hello Steven, Vikram,

We have a wonderful experience with both Xandros 3 and now 4 Professional edition. http://www.xandros.com/products/business/dsk_professional/features.html
It delivers Staroffice / Openoffice 'parceled' which means these office suites work as good as MS Office does on Windows. In fact the former have got an edge, being platform independent. A peace of mind during transition when you have a Linux-Windows mixed environment. Our Windows users didn't need any training when they migrated to Xandros which pleasantly runs some of the Windows applications including MS Office, Adobe Photoshop etc..

Hitches and glitches come in your way when you try to "assemble" a Linux solution by yourself, picking-up bits and pieces from here and there. So, Let this tedious job better be done by the people whose job is it. For instance, in an enterprise, one shouldn't go for bare bones Openoffice. Instead, pay a little for Staroffice with enterprise support and you will get everything including macros and migration support from MS Office .
http://www.sun.com/software/star/staroffice/enterprises.jsp

Ubuntu is good for techies but not at all for serious business use. It lacks drivers, plug ins, mobile, VPN, security and other support. Dell made a mistake by adopting Ubuntu purely on the basis of vote-count. Lenovo has taken the right path by opting for Suse so does Peugeot who announced to migrate to Linux desktop on the eve of Vista-launch. http://www.novell.com/news/press/psa_peugeot_citro_eumln_chooses_suse_linux_enterprise_desktop_from_novell

Nonetheless, Vikram has enough reasons to be unhappy until Oracle provides EBS client / Sun JRE plug-in for Linux. Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Riaz

Saadi,You're always welcome to try this yourself, and I'd be interested to hear about your experiences.  However, if you encounter any issues, they would need to be reproduced on a Windows desktop client before we can assist with them.Regards,Steven

So, there's no possibility of running EBS client on any Linux desktop or thin client? Not even an uncertified option? Nor on Oracle's own Linux? What an irony!!! Can anybody help if Oracle Corp. is not listening???

Steven,
So far I've not been able to come across the instance running EBS client on Linux desktop, flawlessly, although some people have had success through codeweavers' crossover office. Is there any help out there? Linux desktop gaining traction on the back of initiatives from IBM, Sun, Suse and RedHat, isn't it time for Oracle not to miss the bandwagon?

Riaz, a correction for you. Openoffice downloads have crossed 100 million mark! (far more than 30 million you mentioned herein above )

Steven again. You also shunned Openoffice in the above blog. Will you still not consider? Look what Gartner is saying about the future of MS Office "It is unlikely that ISO will adopt Microsoft's Open XML document format." http://www.gartner.com/resources/140100/140101/iso_approval_of_oasis_opendo_140101.pdf
So, is Oracle sleeping on the past or embracing the future!

Best of luck for you guys at Oracle.

Saadi

Saadi,You're welcome to experiment with the use of Linux desktops connecting to the E-Business Suite, and I'd be interested in hearing about your experiences.  However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, we're only able to provide patches or workarounds for issues that can be reproduced on Windows desktop clients.As for OpenOffice:  we're monitoring market uptake of this closely.  It will be interesting to see how the recent news about IBM will affect market uptake of OpenOffice.  If levels of customers using Linux desktops and OpenOffice change notably, we're open to revisiting our certification position for the E-Business Suite.Regards,Steven

I have seen Linux Desktops on some government and not-for profit organizations.

The main reason is not to pay Windows licensing costs. On some institutions here you cant even afford to paint the walls, so why would you purchase a expensive desktop operating system for a operator or data entry terminal, that dont even need a word processor. Of course they use a free flavour of linux, and support it themselves.

There is a interesting case I know of a organization that uses both custom developed Forms applications and Oracle eBusiness suite with thin clients connecting to a central server, running linux. And they access eBusiness suite using Netscape navigator and the Sun Java plugin. If they used a Windows on the central server, they would need to pay Windows license costs for every user.

There was some work to map the Forms fonts correctly, and you need to discover what to change on appsweb.cfg to get the applet started.

Hi, Luis,Sorry for the delay in responding.  I've been working through my post-vacation backlog.I understand the motivation driving Linux adoption on the desktop.  If all goes well in this space, the market penetration may reach a threshold point where Linux certifications will be offered as a matter of course.  We'll keep our eyes open for that day.Regards,Steven 

# How many production desktops are running Linux?
Currently we have only few desktop for testing. Users using EBS definitely not running Linux Desktop.

# How many production desktops are running Windows or Mac OS X?
1582++

# What Linux distribution and version are you using on your desktops?
Fedora 8

# What chipset are your desktops running?
Intel and AMD

# What browser and version are being used on Linux?
Firefox 2.0

# What E-Business Suite release are you running?
Release 11.5.10.2

# What applications are you running?
Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivables, General Ledger, Assets, Order Management, Inventory, Depot Repair, CRM, Purchasing

Hello Steven,

A year ago you were not sure about Star / Openoffice support in EBS. Meahwile SAP is there. https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/weblogs?blog=/pub/wlg/10337

So, does Oracle still have any plan to support the Star / Openoffice and / or the Linux desktop client for the EBS?

Riaz

Hello, Riaz,

Thanks for the pointer to the SAP site.

We have no immediate plans to certify Star / OpenOffice or Linux desktops with the E-Business Suite right now.

Please feel free to drop me a line with the details of your firm's planned production rollouts of these technologies.

If market demand shows that these technologies are gaining considerable momentum and a suitable number of customers confirm their plans for productions deployments, we'd be happy to revisit this as part of our certification cycle.

Regards,
Steven

With all these blogs I read. there is no answere, if I can run Linux clinet for Release 12 just as test purpose and what r the steps.. what do I need to do ? what JRE plugin do i need to install.. where do I get it ?

Sanjay,

See this article:

Linux Clients for the E-Business Suite - http://blogs.oracle.com/stevenChan/2007/07/linux_clients_for_the_ebusines.html

We have no immediate plans to support the use of Linux desktop clients with the E-Business Suite. If your firm is planning a widescale production rollout of Linux desktops across your enterprise, please feel free to send a completed survey (from the linked article).

Also remember that a guaranteed way of getting an authoritative reply to all of your certification questions is to log a formal Service Request via Oracle Metalink. This might save you from having to scour the Internet for dubious-quality responses from non-Oracle staff.

Regards,
Steven

Hi,

I just wanted to add to the posts above. I have been able to get EBS 11.5.10.2 working on Ubuntu 8.0.4 LTS and Firefox and everything is working like a bomb.

I currently use SQL developer for any database dev work.

There is also a release of forms and reports 6i for linux but unfortunately I have not yet had the time to get this to work, so for now I am rdesktop'ing in to another windoze workstation to do form and report development until I can invest the time to get forms and reports developer working properly.

I too would like to see Oracle make more of a concerted effort to supporting more of the linux desktop environments available!

Hi, Hadley,

Glad to hear this is working out for your test environment. Is your firm evaluating a production rollout of Linux desktops clients across your organisation?

If yes, would you have any additional details about the scope, distro, and so on?

Regards,
Steven

I can second the Ubuntu 8.04 LTS operability with 11i. I am accessing EBS 11.5.10.2 using firefox 3.0.3. This combination has not been able to work for me on the following Linux Distros: CentOS 5.2, Ubuntu 8.10, Sidux, and Mint Linux. One of the major problems is getting firefox to use the JRE plug-in required by Oracle 11i and once configured not crashing.

Hi, John,

Thanks for letting us know about your experiences with these distros.

Regards,
Steven

From:

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?id=09/03/25/1550215&from=rss

"Red Hat CEO Jim Whitehurst questioned the relevance of Linux on the desktop, citing several financial and interoperability hurdles to business adoption at a panel on end-users and Linux last night at the OSBC. 'First of all, I don't know how to make money on it,' Whitehurst said, adding that he was uncertain how relevant the desktop itself will be in five years given advances in cloud-based and smartphone computing, as well as VDI. 'The concept of a desktop is kind of ridiculous in this day and age. I'd rather think about skating to where the puck is going to be than where it is now.' Despite increasing awareness that desktop Linux is ready for widespread mainstream adoption, fellow panelists questioned the practicality of switching to Linux, noting that even some Linux developers prefer Macs to Linux. 'There's a desire [to use desktop Linux],' one panelist said, 'but practicality sets in. There are significant barriers to switching.'"

Thanks for the link, Vikram. I found this a very interesting read, given that it's Red Hat's CEO himself saying that. Definitely food for thought.

Regards,
Steven

Hi

We have a client who is running about 4000 Suse V9 desktop clients vs 8844 MS Windows clients.
In June the number of Linux desktops will go up to 9000 and the MS Windows machines will stay at 8844 (roughly).

The client is also implementing Oracle EBS for the first time (R12 - 12.0.6).
We have however, with some disappointment and surprise, realized exactly how little support or information is available for Linux clients. This surprises me as I would have thought that this issue would have been addressed by now.

Due to the negative budget impact, should the client have to migrate the Linux machines to Windows, the client will be very tempted to stay with Linux to say the very least and will request a very, very solid reason for having to make the extra investment in terms of both time and money.

We are however struggling to find any info with regards to what kind of problems can be expected. The quick and easy answer that everyone from Oracle is throwing at us is that it will not be supported.

We have known this from day 1.
However, we are now at day 35 of this investigation and still have had no feedback with regards to what problems we can expect out of a technical perspective. If you do the math you will understand that the additional investment will hardly be qualified with: "you cannot log support calls".

Is there anyone that can inform us of whether or not we will be able to get this setup working or whether we should not even attempt it?! What kind of problems will we be facing?!

Off course the client can still log support calls from the Windows clients, should the problem be reproducible on a Windows client, after being noticed on a Linux client.

So, what we need to know is, can we expect running into more problems on the Linux machines, which might not be reproducible on the Windows machines?

I realize there might be some extra setup involved initially to experiment and optimize the Linux clients such as standardizing to a distro which is better suited to EBS/ JRE config etc.

But can we expect to run EBS properly from Linux clients in the long run?

Also, who can advise us on this process from Oracle's side? Will someone be able to take ownership of this matter from an Architectural point?

This matter is becoming quite serious and I believe that both Oracle and the client might be able to benefit from this implementation if handled correctly.

Regards
De Wet du Toit
Oracle Technical Team Lead
Tekora Consulting
CLIENT NAME WITHELD BUT AVAILABLE ON REQUEST

Hello, De Wet,

Thank you for the background about your client's plans for Linux desktops.

>Is there anyone that can inform us of whether or not we will be able to get this setup working or whether we should not even attempt it?! What kind of problems will we be facing?!

>can we expect to run EBS properly from Linux clients in the long run?

As of today, we still do not have any plans to perform formal certification tests of any Linux desktop clients with the E-Business Suite. In fact, we have not performed any tests with Linux distros at all. Given our lack of hands-on experience with any Linux distros, it's very difficult for us to give you any informed guidance about the potential issues that your client might encounter with this configuration.

As you can see from some of the anecdotal reports from customers above, some folks are running Firefox with their Linux desktops. My impressions of their experiences so far:

- Firefox on Linux generally works with EBS
- These are primarily non-production desktops
- They've encountered seemingly-minor issues with JRE compatibility
- They have ongoing issues with the lack of transparent integration with OpenOffice (this is more of an issue with OpenOffice not supporting the complete set of MS Office APIs)

>you cannot log support calls

Any questions about support require a nuanced discussion. It is not accurate for anyone to say that you cannot log support calls.

To be more precise about this: your client is free to report any issues that they encounter with Linux desktops running Firefox and the E-Business Suite.

Your client should understand that neither Oracle Support nor Development have access to Linux desktops. Therefore, Oracle Support and Development will attempt to reproduce reported issues on Firefox running on Windows desktops. Note that Oracle Support and Development will be able to provide patches and workarounds only for issues that can be reproduced on Windows desktops. Oracle can't guarantee that those patches and workarounds will have the same effect on Firefox running on Linux desktops.

>can we expect running into more problems on the Linux machines, which might not be reproducible on the Windows machines?

This is something that you might wish to run by the Mozilla Foundation. The key question is whether Firefox running on Linux is 100% compatible with Firefox running on Windows. Oracle lacks the experience with the former platform to make any statements about functional equivalency between the two browser ports.

>who can advise us on this process from Oracle's side?

I am part of the Applications Technology Integration group, the EBS development team that certifies various technologies with the E-Business Suite. Here's my advice:

If you're looking for a fully certified and supported desktop platform for the E-Business Suite, I recommend using either Microsoft Windows or Mac OS X. These are the only fully certified and supported desktops for the E-Business Suite.

If you are comfortable with doing your own compatibility testing of your Linux distro with EBS, then you should consider the support implications that I've discussed above. There is always the risk that Firefox on Linux will exhibit behaviour that can't be reproduced on Firefox on Windows. If you encounter issues like that, you will need to log bugs with Firefox/Mozilla Foundation; Oracle will not be able to provide Linux-specific compatibility patches for EBS.

>Will someone be able to take ownership of this matter from an Architectural point?

No groups within the EBS Division have funding to perform Linux desktop certifications with the E-Business Suite today. We continue to monitor Linux desktop penetration statistics, so this kind of feedback is useful. At present, our estimates are that less than .0007% of our EBS customer base is interested in Linux. This number is going up, but very, very slowly. As you can imagine, it will need to be much higher before we can seriously consider funding this certification.

We revisit our certification strategy for Linux periodically, and will consider your feedback as part of these periodic reviews.

Regards,
Steven

Hello Steven,

What are Oracle's plan for Openoffice (Staroffice) now?

Hello, Riaz,

It's a little early in the process to comment on certification implications of the still-pending Sun acquisition. We're not permitted to discuss anything associated with this acquisition yet.

I'll post an update on OpenOffice and other Sun-related topics for EBS users as soon as this situation changes.

Regards,
Steven